US (non-Alaskan) Place Names -- Discussion

[Matteo]

I've added all of them to db and, when missing, to geonames, thanks!

For Anacapa whistle buoy, it was there even in 1876! Must have become less and less useful since the lighthouse was built in 1912 and has disappeared sometime between the 20s and the 40s

[studentforever]

Pioneer refers to a Jetty Light House coming out of berth 92, San Pedro Harbor, Calif

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/247055604?objectPage=42

Well, none of the lighthouses on the database triggered an id in my mind so I had a delve and came up with this
https://picryl.com/media/lighthouse-at- ... california

It doesn't feel right for Pioneer's reference but it is definitely a lighthouse on a rock in California. If you think it is the right lighthouse I am definitely open to persuasion.

Thanks for any help

[Matteo]

On page 42 can't see the light being referenced...

Berth 92 on municipal dock should be along municipal pier 1, which is at the entrance of channel leading to main channel and the turning basin.
This 1920 map shows the municipal pier 1 in its southwestern part, and the long breakwater, with the light at its end, to the south of it.
In this 1925 map the same structure is shown, with the light at the end of the breakwater.

The image you found is definitely the light now known as the Angels Gate Lighthouse (or Los Angeles Harbor Light)... geonames has it, at the end of the breakwater, in position 33.70856, -118.2516 and it's in our database with a few alternate names. Its a main landmark since its construction in 1913, so it's usually the light to address when entering Los Angeles/San Pedro Harbor.

Before adding or pointing out anything i'd like to better check the logpage... i tried going a little before and after the one you posted but failed to find it.

[Randi]

Maybe this page: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/247055604?objectPage=33

[studentforever]

Thanks everyone. I think my confusion is partly linguistic. My image of a 'jetty' is a structure, possibly involving tying up boats, going out from the bank and which you can walk along to reach your boat or just get a better view. While this lighthouse seems to be on a rock at the end of what I would probably describe as a breakwater. Another instance of 2 countries separated by a common language I fear.

My next problem is purely technical. Pioneer references 2 buoys off San Francisco, buoy 3 and buoy 5. Well, I have located them on this chart (on the outgoing track of the main shipping channel)
https://charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/18649.pdf
but my computer makes calculating the positions from this chart very difficult and I am unlikely to get a half accurate answer. Can I prevail on a kind soul to calculate the coordinates please and then Matteo can add it to the database for future ease of use.
Thanks

[Randi]

In this case, both versions of English seem to have the same meaning
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jetty
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/breakwater

[Matteo]

Glad to have located that light... my grasp of English is far worse than yours! I always assumed the two terms to be more or less synonyms with little differences, so i had not realized the issue was indeed with the term the logkeeper used.

Regarding the buoys, i suppose you're referring to the two forming, along with other six, the main ship channel, just before entering the Golden Gate... i've added them to geonames, will wait for confirmation they're the one you're looking for before entering them in the database as well.

If buoys have not been moved or renamed, i've found the modern https://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts.c ... /-122.5973 to be great for locating them (coverage is great in us, definitely bad in some other countries)... there's an option to show coordinates on upper left menu, and changing depth to fathoms can aid a lot to compare to old maps. For the buoys It's surprising how they're often still in the same place as 100 years ago... not as much as with triangulation stations, but once they're placed they're usually not moved around too often.

San Francisco Main Ship Channel Lighted Buoy 3 (alternate San Francisco Buoy 3), position 37.77359, -122.61891
San Francisco Main Ship Channel Lighted Bell Buoy 5 (alternate San Francisco Buoy 5), position 37.77725, -122.60609

[studentforever]

Thanks so much, those look like the ones I'm interested in. Meriam-Webster is a US publication and while both usages would be listed in dictionaries (which tend to record the language AS USED) conventions can differ between countries.
I use quite a small screen laptop and the tracker pad is a bit erratic at times so small text or symbols have to be enlarged and then reading off the coordinates accurately can be challenging ( I sometimes have to get a bit firm with the tracker pad when reading the next line down on the high res log images). I don't want to put inaccurate data into the log, I'd sooner leave it out. I hope someone, sometime reads the logs we produce and apprecoates the info we unearth to make them comprehensible.

[Matteo]

Perfect! I've added the two buoys to our database (number 1 was already present, we've almost the whole green side of the channel ).

Can feel you about the laptop... I'm mainly working on a laptop as well but had to install a little usb hub in order to use a proper keyboard and, more important, a mouse, cant really stand trackpads!

[Michael]

A few years ago, when we were babysitting grandchildren in Menlo Park, California, I had just my ancient old HP Notebook. I wasn't allowed to use my daughter's work computer, because I would have to install LibreOffice and some other software on it, which was not allowed. I did use her mouse, keyboard and her large monitor, so it felt like a "real" computer, other than it took about 15 minutes to boot up. Once I was at the point of just entering data, it was fine.

[pommystuart]

Michael, hows the New computer going?

[Michael]

It's good. Having a big screen really helps.

[ggordon]

Haida 1922 references the San Diego Municipal Wharf twice during the 8AM to 4PM watch on this page.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorag ... 2-0021.JPG

I've only been able to find one reference to a Municipal Wharf in San Diego.

This photo shows the Broadway Pier being built in September, 1913.
https://calisphere.org/item/ark:/13030/kt4t1nc3h8/

And this photo shows the Municipal Wharf being built in November, 1913.
https://calisphere.org/item/ark:/13030/kt887020x4/

The photos look so similar (allowing for two more months of construction in the second photo) that I believe the Municipal Wharf was the Broadway Pier.
https://www.geonames.org/5330872/broadway-pier.html

[ggordon]

A few days later Haida is leaving San Diego. At 9:35PM the ship is abeam a buoy, and sets course to 272°.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorag ... 2-0023.JPG

I need help figuring out which of the many San Diego buoys it might be. It looks like "g & w" or "gtw". Could the w stand for whistle? Or does "g & w" stand for green and white?

Since they changed course to 272°, I'm guessing they were outside the channel.

[Matteo]

I agree municipal wharf being Broadway Pier... its not named in this 1922 map but it's the only one making sense and Pier 1, north of it and more or less the only other possible candidate, was not existing at the time.

I've added the alternate Municipal Wharf to geonames and our database (Broadway Pier was already in both).

For the buoy, g+w should stand for gong and whistle. It should be 1.2 miles from when they drop the log, which would make sense it's dropped as soon as they leave the main ship channel.
I've checked a few maps (1922, 1927, ... noaa historical maps search as quite a wide range of maps there) and the only Whistle Buoy, the "1A" on map, which we have in the db as San Diego Whistle Buoy in position 32.62227, -117.24587 is a little too far away.
I guess the best candidate could be the Bell buoy marked "ISD" in the 1922 map which is at the right distance from the end of channel, and also the first opportunity to turn north, as the Haida seems to do (as soon as they're abeam it they take a sharp turn to 272 and to 311 shortly after, to go around Point Loma). We have it in the database (and on geonames) as San Diego Bay Channel Lighted Buoy 5 and alternate San Diego Buoy 5.

I've tried backtracking, but since we have no other references except the buoy and that they're cruising various courses with no patent log and no speed recorded while exiting harbor, i had to make a lot of guesses about both the course and the distance traveled, so take it with a grain of salt:


If you think the guess is good, i'm adding an alternate to the database and geonames (San Diego Gong and Whistle Buoy)

[ggordon]

Thank you Matteo for your help with this.

I couldn't come up with anything that would make sense for "g & w".

I had been looking at buoy 5 as the most likely candidate because it seemed like the most likely point for them to change direction. The log entry saying they were on various courses in the channel was of no help. I remember seeing buoy "ISD" on one of the earlier maps.

[studentforever]

I'm afraid Pioneer is at it again, she refers to Point Vincent's buoy at 8.58pm on the way in to San Pedro harbor.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/247055604?objectPage=23

I can't find any references to the buoy having tried various combinations of Pt, Point, Vincent, Vicente, Vincente etc. Any help gratefully received.

[Michael]

It looks like there's a whistle buoy just off Point Vicente on this map. The Fishing map shows a rock off the point, so it looks like the buoy may have been just outside the rock.

[studentforever]

Thanks very much Michael. I've put a to the map, anyone who really wants to know can consult it and see the site which is clearly marked.

[Matteo]

@Gordon:
You're very welcome! Sorry i could not totally exclude the whistle buoy 1A, if they dropped the log quite later than i imagined it can still be a candidate and also the "normal" turning point when approaching San Pedro due to the kelp patch surrounding the point... it's one of those cases in which we cannot be dead sure unless we can find a "gong and whistle" buoy mentioned in some book or list of that period.

@Studentforever and Michael:
I think the "whistle" on that map refers to the light as the diamond buoy icon is not present... it's not unusual they have a whistle as well to aid when fog is too thick. The whistle is mentioned in its Lighthousefriends page.
In this 1948 map anyway a buoy marked WN"I" is present shortly southeast of the rocks, most probably to signal their presence, so Michael guess is correct. Unfortunately on noaa historical search there are no nautical maps of the 10s, 20s and 30s... there are either from 1890 and earlier (no buoys there) or post WW2 (mostly without buoy, except that 1948 one).

Ive added it as Point Vicente Buoy and alternate Point Vincent Buoy to geonames and to our db, position 33.7382, -118.41051